Episode Notes

Zach has the pleasure of speaking with Glenn Newman, VMware's Global Diversity & Inclusion Program Manager, in this episode focused around all things D&I. Glenn is a professional with over seven years of diversity and inclusion, campus recruitment, and talent management experience. In his current role at VMware, Glenn is working to take VMware's Power of Difference communities (PODs) to the next level by helping them achieve business and D&I program objectives. He shares with us what he's most excited about when it comes to his role and VMware in 2020 and so much more.

Check out Ijeoma Oluo's book, So You Want to Talk About Race, on Amazon! Connect with Glenn on LinkedIn! Visit our website!

TRANSCRIPT

Zach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you know what we do. I say a little thing, I go on with a joke, and then I say something about how we amplify the voices of black and brown people at work. Shout-out to all of our listeners, our first and last time listeners, you know what I'm saying? The millennials, the Gen X'ers. The--what's after the Gen X'ers? The Baby Boomers, and then also some of y'all Gen Y--them Gen Z's, rather. Excuse me. Gen Y is another word millennials. You know what I'm talking about. If you're new here, you know what we do. We do this through--we amplify voices through authentic, accessible discussions with black and brown leaders. Today is no different as we have Glenn Newman with VMware. Hold up, now. Glenn Newman with VMware? I gotta go ahead and give just one quick air horn for that. [air horn sfx] Yes. We out here. We out here. We out here. Glenn is a D&I and talent professional with over seven years of diversity and inclusion, campus recruitment, and talent management experience. In his current role at VMware, Glenn is working to make VMware's power of difference communities - they call those pods, y'all - to take them to the next level by helping them achieve business and D&I program objectives. He is also focused on building inclusive manager and leadership capabilities as the company works to increase representation of underrepresented minorities and women by fostering a more inclusive culture, okay, where employees feel like they belong and they can bring their authentic selves to work every day. Okay, now listen, y'all, that was a whole bunch of, like, corporate talk to say Glenn is out here trying to make it better for black and brown folks at VMware to do what they do, okay? That's all that that was saying. But, you know, they gotta--in this D&I space, we have to kind of pretty things up with these, like, really flowery and colorful languages, but that's what he's doing, okay? Now, look, previously Glenn managed the overall recruitment of associates and consultants for BCG--okay, what's up, BCG? Hold up. ["ow" sfx] But this ain't a BCG podcast. I'm just saying. He also had a talent in D&I roles at Travelport, Accenture, Visa, Google--as a contractor--see, I like... you know what? Glenn is an honest dude, man. So he sent me over this copy, right, and on the copy it says "contract" in parentheses. Glenn, you ain't gotta be that honest.

Glenn: [inaudible, both laugh]

Zach: And he began his career as a communication and change management analyst at Towers Watson. Man. With all of that being said, Glenn, man, welcome to the show. How are you doing? [kids cheering sfx]

Glenn: Thank you, thank you. I'm good, I'm good. How about yourself?

Zach: Man, I'm doing really well. I'm excited to have you here. You know, we had to take some time, you know, but you back in town and we're having a conversation. I'm excited about it. So let's--you know, we did a little brief intro about you where I kind of gave, you know, your LinkedIn picture, but what else would you like to tell us about yourself?

Glenn: I mean, I guess honestly you captured most of it in terms of, like, the bio and kind of what I'm working on at VMware. I mean, outside of that I'm an Ares, so I'm a hothead.

Zach: I got you, I got you.

Glenn: I like to ask the difficult questions, and I feel like anybody who has worked with me before would definitely tell you that I have a tendency to ask difficult questions, but also ask the questions that other people feel like they probably shouldn't ask or they don't want to ask, and I feel like I help keep people accountable, you know? So I think it's important to be that voice and to have that voice and to push the envelope a little bit. So hopefully I can disrupt for the betterment of others.

Zach: Come on, now. Disrupt? I love that, man. So you said you're an Ares. So I'm a Virgo. Actually, you know, Beyonce and I have the same birthday.

Glenn: I did not know that. I did know she was a Virgo though.

Zach: I'm saying. So, you know, I'm out here as well. I'm trying to disrupt things as well. So okay, okay, okay, so you're a global diversity and inclusion program manager. What does that mean practically, and what prompted you to take this role at VMware?

Glenn: Yeah. So I mean, quite frankly, I was looking for a role where I could have an impact, and I really--so a lot of my career has been in campus recruiting and diversity campus recruiting, right, and I really wanted to pivot from more of the acquisition side and the talent attraction into the, you know, development, the retention, promotion, engagement, et cetera, right, of underrepresented groups, and so I was looking for opportunities, and I was interviewing for a few, but quite frankly I wanted to stay in Atlanta, and the good thing about--one of the good things about the VMware role is it allowed me to stay in Atlanta, and I'm thankful for that. I'm always grateful, because I get to work in tech, I get to work at a pretty large, pretty well-known tech company, but I get to do it in Atlanta, and I don't think a lot of people can say that same thing. I think the other part of it is I was really looking to have a seat at the table, and I can honestly say that, you know, my manager who's a director and [my?] VP. Like, they want to know what I think, I mean, but they want to know what everybody else on the--what everybody on the team thinks, and so, like, that's important to me because I've been in places before where my voice didn't matter or it was overshadowed by people who were more senior or people in the business. I mean, you know, you've worked in personal services, so you definitely probably know what that's like. [Well?,] you've worked in personal services, so you know what that's like. And so I think, you know, just throughout my interview process it felt like the right fit for me for a number of reasons. And so yeah, that's what prompted me to join, and I think, you know, since joining, I feel like, you konw, my expectations have been managed well, but I think I have been set up for success and I'm actually doing the work that we talked about doing in the interview, which is good.

Zach: That is good, man, 'cause, you know, sometimes it's like you get a job and you think--especially in these D&I roles, right? And I've had these conversations, like, with other folks on the podcast, right? We've talked to Jennifer Brown and we've talked to Amy Waninger. We've talked to other people, right? We've talked to even DeRay Mckesson, and we talk about how, like, these D&I spaces are--they're slowly becoming decolonized, but, like, there's still a lot of, like, work to do to, like, really get stronger representation in these spaces, right? And you end up thinking--you know, you're over here like, "Oh, snap, I got this job, and they're about to, you know, really put me at the seat of the table and give me a voice," and you turn around and you're talking about ["haha" sfx] Like, not. Joke's on you, you know what I'm saying? You don't even have no seat.

Glenn: It's so [?] though, and I think, like, just given my personality, and--I mean, I attribute this to professional serv--like, I grew up in professional services, right? Like, from Towers Watson, from working at Accenture for over two years, from the BCG. I mean, those organizations move quickly, right, and they're all about, like, high-caliber work, high-quality work, quick turnarounds, and so I think coming to VMware and industry in general--industry is a bit slower, right? And so I think I have to manage my expectations around what I can get done, what we can done, what the business is ready for, and so I think I'm definitely learning those lessons, you know? And I'm still working to manage my own expectations. [laughs]

Zach: That's real. No, no, no. That's real, and it's crazy--it's crazy, man, 'cause sometimes, like I said, it just takes time. I think there's a lot of--and I've had this conversation multiple times too, like, I think it's easy if you don't have, like, black and brown people, like, in these roles, like, it's easy to forget, like, the emotional labor that it takes to do this type of work, right? Like, it's not just like--

Glenn: [?]

Zach: Right? It's human. Like, you're dealing with human beings, and you're dealing with human beings that look like you, have similar stories to you, that you're really trying to impact, so I definitely get that, and managing expectations is always important. Let's talk about this. Let's talk about this. You know, D&I continues to be, like, an area where organizations are focused on, especially in tech, so what do you believe, right, has been the motivation for VMware to continue to expand their D&I office? Because, like, I feel as if--I don't know. Like, you know, we've had some research--we have whitepapers, you know, on our website, like--oh, by the way. Hey, y'all. Check us out, y'all. We got whitepapers. Like, don't play with us. [straight up sfx] Okay? We got whitepapers. [both laugh] And in our research, everybody knows that a common statistic is that $8 billion a year is being spent, and I would argue wasted, in D&I today and that we're not really seeing tangible results. And especially as you think about, like the economy as it stands today. Like, why do you think, in this point in time, VMware is still expanding this space?

Glenn: Well, I feel like a lot of the times we hear about, like, "It's the right thing to do" and "We're doing it for the business," right? So I hear that a lot, and not--and not specifically at VMware, but just in general, and I say that to say I think those are the reasons we're doing it, right? Like, we're doing it because we genuinely believe, right, across the company, especially from a leadership perspective, that it's important and that specifically, like, we call our pods that I mentioned earlier, the power of difference communities--like, we believe the power of human difference allows us to be better, to develop better products, to build better products, to better serve customers, to be better partners, right? And then to innovate. So I think there's definitely a business reason behind it, but then I also genuinely feel like there are leaders who think it's the right thing to do. And I think it's interesting because--you know, like, there's the winning the hearts and minds of change, right? So I think you have to [hit?] people with the pathos for the people who, you know, they relate to that, but then you have to have, you know, the practicality in the business perspective for others as well. [?] The data had showed that people--like, once they connect emotionally to diversity and inclusion, they're better able to kind of buy into it as opposed to just connecting to the business. So I think we definitely we have some more of that, work to do, to continue to pull at people's heartstrings, but then also make it real for them so that they genuinely buy in ,and not just because it's the right thing to do from a business perspective but it's the right thing to do from a human perspective.

Zach: That's a really good point, and I do think it's both and, right? I think organizations often fail when they try to do one or the other, because, like, the reality is some folks are just not gonna care, right? But then you got other folks who are like, "Okay, I'ma care as much as it benefits my bottom line, so if you can point to me, like, how this can benefit my bottom line, then I'm all for it," right? I think the challenge--the challenge that I think, something that has yet to be quantified, is, like, the amount of time organizations waste in, like, really calculating turnover. So, like, we know the turnover data is bad, like, in tech. But, like, those numbers have yet to really be fully published. Like, I don't think any one organization has really, like, really, really gone into, like, the comparative analytics on their turnover data, but, like, I think if really one was to look at those numbers alone, they'd be like, "Ayo, we gotta do a better job, 'cause, like, this is crazy." I mean, it's just over here like [chaching sfx] But, like, opposite. Like, in reverse, you know what I'm saying? Like, it would be like that sound, but, you know. [both laugh]

Glenn: Like a whomp-whomp-whomp. [both laugh]

Zach: Right? You know what I mean. And then over time, you know, organizations are so, like, monolithic. They're so white. They're so straight. They're so male. You know, I'm looking on my job board--I'm looking at the job board, I might see a job--let's just say, like, I'm a person of color, I'm on the job board--because I know that this place isn't inclusive--I'm looking at that job like ["i don't know who this man is" Keke sfx]. [Glenn laughs] You know, sorry to this man. I don't even recognize--man, listen, Glenn, I've been so excited to use this soundboard, man. I've got some new [?]--

Glenn: I love that. Oh, my gosh. If you knew how many times I say that, like, in a week. "I'm sorry. I don't want to sound foolish."

Zach: "I don't want to sound ridiculous. I do not know who this is." And so let me pivot, right? So you talked about the power of difference and these communities. I really want to--now, look, I'm not trying to have you spill any secret sauce out, you know what I'm saying, but I want to learn more about the strategy of these power of difference [communities] and really--frankly, I want to talk more about this offline too. Like, what's the strategy with these pods? Like, what are y'all trying to achieve? What is this looking like? Like, how did this come about, and what--practically speaking, like, how does it fit into y'all's D&I strategy?

Glenn: Yeah. I mean, like, honestly [in our?] D&I strategy overall there are three kind of key pieces. There's the representation piece, where we talk a lot about increasing representation and focusing specifically on underrepresented minorities and women, and what I often tell people is just because we're--just because we're saying we're focusing on does not mean--it doesn't mean that we aren't also working to increase representation of other underrepresented groups, and I say that because I really think it's important for people to know that we're doing both. So it's a yes and, and again, these things are not mutually exclusive. The other part of it is building a culture of inclusion, right? So focusing on culture and what that really means, and then the third piece is thought leadership. So how are we tapping into podcasts like this to let people know that "Okay, VMware is an inclusive place to work," and we're working to make it an even more inclusive place to work, right? And then how are we sharing what we're doing and the impact of the diversity and the inclusion that is having on the business? So I say all of that to say our pods, the power of difference communities, are really our ERGs, right? So employee resource groups or business resource groups, and I think we are at a place where we are really trying to take those ERGs, known as pods, to be more BRGs, right? So how are they [?] business? Meaning how are the programs and the initiatives and the sponsorships and things like that contributing to the business? Whether that be in terms of professional development, of underrepresented groups, so that they develop and have talent moves and move into different roles and are contributing more to the business, whether that means we are attending various recruiting conferences and thinking about building pipelines in STEM and in tech of underrepresented groups, whether that be, you know, high school, college, what have you, you know, experienced professionals, or is that we're partnering with other non-profits in the space to, like, you know, talk about what we're doing and help other companies and partner with other companies? And then--or, you know, like, a lot of companies, especially companies who are B to C, right? So we think about, like, big consumer goods or just any product that sells products directly to consumers, they think a lot about and have a lot of conversations about "How do our products reflect our consumers?" Right? So if you think about some of the large consumer goods or CPGs or those companies, they're really thinking about those things, and so I think for us it's "How are we making sure that we're getting the opinions of our employees who are underrepresented or in underrepresented groups, and how are we leveraging that thought leadership, that knowledge, that know-how, to further develop relationships with our customers to build better products to innovate, right? And so I think ideally we want to get our pods to a place where we're doing more of those things.

Zach: That's a really exciting vision, right? Like, so you're thinking--so basically these pods, I mean, they're almost like little--I mean, they're genuinely--if effectively strategized around and activated effectively--are real difference makers, and you have them basically stratified across the business. That's pretty exciting, man.

Glenn: Right, right, right. Yeah, and I think--you know, I think it's easier for people in general to make that connection when you're walking into, like, a grocery store and you're picking up a product on a shelf and thinking, "How are people who look like me or are like me thinking about buying this product or consuming this product?" And so for us it's different because, again, we're B to B, and we have to think about it differently. So I do think it's--I do think it's ambitious, but I think it can be done, especially when you think about relationships and building relationships and, then again, innovating.

Zach: 100%. Okay, so what are you most excited about when it comes to your role and VMware in 2020?

Glenn: That's a good question. I think what I'm really most interested in is--so quite frankly we have--and this is public knowledge--so we have closed the acquisition of Carbon Black, and we are working to close the acquisition of Pivotal, so as a result of that our diversity and inclusion team is gonna be growing, and so I think what I'm--what I'm looking forward to is the growth of our team, which means 1. we can do more, and I think also I'm looking forward to the opportunity to partner more with the business and be more of a diversity business partner. So a lot of tech companies have started developing or creating these diversity business partner roles that sit in the business and/or [audio cut] plans that they then work with the business to execute those plans, right? So I think you can think about it from, like--there's a D&I engagement piece, which is around the pods, and then there's, like, the education piece around unconscious bias and how we--how are we educating our managers, our leaders, our employees, around inclusion and topics like privilege and microaggressions and things like that, right? And then there's sitting in the business and working with business leaders and managers to develop plans to actually move the needle, right, in a different way than on the--you know, the education and the engagement, that side. So I think that's what I'm looking for, to have an opportunity to really partner more closely with the business in 2020 as a result of our team growing.

Zach: My goodness gracious. I gotta give you a Flex bomb for all that though. That sounds incredible. [Flex bomb sfx] That sounds awesome, yeah. And shout-out to your acquisition as well. [both laugh]

Glenn: Right.

Zach: Okay, okay, okay. So, you know, you're talking about what you've been doing at VMware, you're talking about some of the strategic visioning around the pods. Again, it does sound really ambitious, but, like, I don't think--when I say ambitious... sometimes people say ambitious and they're really just hating, right? It's kind of like, "It sounds a bit ambitious, don't you think?" [both laugh] But I mean it's ambitious like, "Wow, this is very positive." Like, this is incredible, and I'm really excited for what y'all are trying to drive. This is my question though. What advice would you have for organizations really at the beginning of their D&I journeys, right? Like, maybe they don't even have ERGs or BRGs. And then what have been the lessons learned for you? That's kind of, like, the B part to that question.

Glenn: Yeah. So I think, like, advice, I think for companies who are just starting, I don't know, I think it's like--I don't know. I always go back to, like, the change management, right, part of it, right? So, like, thinking about how are you really pulling in leaders, how are you having it--how are you having your efforts so that they are leader-led, right, and it really sits in the business and leaders are held accountable for. So I think that accountability is super important. And not just leaders, right? So it's like--if VPs and above are the only people who are held accountable, then what happens to other people who are directors, [?], et cetera, who lead teams and [audio cut] they're not held accountable? So I think accountability is big, and I think for companies who are just starting out in general, like, just starting out the company by having an inclusive culture and kind of ingraining that into people and educating people from the time that they join the company, but even before they join the company, like, through the onboarding and through the talent acquisition piece, right? So I think that's the advice I would have, and then really just kind of walk the talk, right? Because I'm one of those people--I really, really value honesty, and I think I'm really good at sensing BS, right? A lot of us are, and I think we know [someone, audio cut] is being honest with us and when they're just kind of, like, giving us the "Well, this is what we're working on," and it's like, "Mm, that's not really what you're working on. Just be honest with me," right? If you have room to grow, say, you know, "These are the two things we're doing. However, we need to be doing these five, and we're working on it," right? Like, I'd rather somebody tell me that than to say, "Oh, well, we have these amazing initiatives," and it's like "Mm, do you really have those initiatives or are you just talking about it and is it just lip service?" So that's my advice. And I think--in terms of, like, lessons learned for me personally, we talk a lot about, like, people of color and underrepresented minorities and black and brown people, right, in corporate America, but, like, I'm not--yes, I'm a black man at VMware, but I'm not just a black man. Like, I'm a gay black man at VMware who is a part of a global team that is not just thinking about bringing in and developing and retaining and promoting more black and brown people, but we're thinking about underrepresented groups more broadly and thinking about making VMware a place where everyone can come and thrive and, I like to say, be safe, seen and connected, or feel safe, seen and connected, right? So I say that to say that a lot of the things that I've learned personally [audio cuts]--I advocate for people who don't look like me or who don't--or who I don't identify with from a, you know, race, ethnic background or other parts of my identity, right? And it's just really interesting because I think by being vulnerable and by being empathetic, I am really able to do that. But it's just interesting how, you know, I can be on a call with people who have a completely different identity than me, but I'm advocating for them. And so I'll give you a real example. A lot of people don't know about the model minority myth, right? So I've read this book by Ijeoma Olu called "So You Want to Talk About Race." I love the book. It's amazing. I would completely, like, totally recommend it. And she has a chapter where she talks about the [model minority myth,] and I think it's important because a lot of people--what the model minority myth is, and, you know, I'm not, like, speaking verbatim here, but it's really around the fact that people think about those who are Asian-American or Asian as the model minority, and they have all of these stereotypes about Asians to include--like, they're super smart. They're really--like, you know, they want to be in, like, STEM. They're really good at math. Like, those kinds of things. A lot of people might think they have a lot of money, but that's not the case. Like, when you look at the data, especially of some Asian-American or Asian cultures, that's just not the case. Like, the degrees or the degree attainment from some of the Asian cultures, those numbers are significantly less than Hispanic/Latinx or African-American and black cultures and black identities, right? So I think that's one of those things, by me just kind of educating myself, reading that book, and then I was on a call, and I literally had to stop someone and say, "Well, you know, actually, the model minority, this is what it is, this is why it exists, and this is why we need an Asian at VMware's power of difference community." It's important because there are also people in this community who aren't rich, who aren't, you know, science, math, STEM, et cetera, majors, and who didn't come from a home where both of their parents were doctors, lawyers, you know, computer scientists, et cetera, and that's what a lot of [audio cuts]--for me and having the opportunity to really advocate for people who aren't like me.

Zach: Man, I love that, and you're 100% right. So I'm just gonna start at the top of what you said. So you were talking about the fact that you're not just one thing, right, like, you're not just one identity, and I think a lot of times, like, we really do fail to be, like, intersectional in our D&I work, and, I mean, we just had Lionel Lee, who is a diversity leader over at the Zillow Group, and we were talking about the fact that, like, when you look at a lot of work today in these D&I spaces, they're mostly, like, focused on gender. So, like, even the fact that, like, we're talking about race and gender to me is a win, because a lot of times we'll say things like--we'll kind of dismiss race and then say things like "diversity of thought" or just other--like, just generalized things, but I think you're absolutely right, especially when it comes to the LGBTQ space, because--

Glenn: Exactly.

Zach: This is what I've learned. So I'm a cishet black dude, right? And as I've been having conversations--and this was, like, earlier, like, last season. We were talking to Janet Pope, who is the diversity and inclusion leader over at Capgemini, and we were talking about how, like, it's important to make sure that you're being intersectional with the LGBTQ spaces, because if you're not, those spaces can end up being, like, largely white, and, like, you end up missing out on a lot of different black and brown experiences within that space.

Glenn: You're so right. I mean, like, think about--again, like, going back to a gay black man who works in tech, like, there's not a lot of us, right? Especially when you think about the LGBTQ community in general. So I was at the Pride parade in Atlanta for the first time, and, I mean, it was just interesting for me to, like, think about being the only in a place where there are a lot of people like me, right? So whether there were LGBTQ or allies or what have you, I was still the only black man there, right? Like, and so--and when I say there, I mean specifically with the company who came out to the parade. Like, I'm sure there are others there. There may or may not be, so I don't want to falsely assume, but it was just interesting again, like, looking around and being like, "Okay, Glenn, you're still the only in this group of people who are like you because of intersectionality," right? And I think lately there has been a lot of conversation around intersectionality in terms of, you know, you looking at women of color, specifically black women, and looking at Asian women, for example, and then also again, from an LGBTQ perspective, there has been a ton of conversation lately around the importance of intersectionality, and I was telling the team--because last week, like, one of the reasons we had to postpone this was because I was at Out and Equal, which is an LGBTQ workplace summit. It's, like, a huge--it was amazing. I loved it, and I think there was this undercurrent of people getting on stage and really being advocates and allies and talking about how trans women of color are being murdered and no one is doing anything about it. I don't think enough people are having those conversations. So it will be interesting to see the shift in how people are having more conversations, but then also taking action over the next few years.

Zach: Man, this has just been a super dope conversation, man. I really appreciate the fact that you took the time to join us. Before we let you go, any shout-outs? Parting words?

Glenn: [laughs] Shout-outs and parting words? Hm. I don't know. Like, honestly, in all seriousness, I would encourage people to read that book - "So You Want To Talk About Race" by Ijeoma Oluo. Like, I think everybody should read it, no matter how you identify, because, like, again, going back to, like, a lesson learned, like, I literally--I mean, of course I knew I had privilege. Like, I'm able-bodied. I'm educated. I went to a really good school. Like, I've had the opportunity to go to really great schools, you know, even in middle and high school, and so I reached out to one of my friends and I was like, "Girl, we got privilege," and, you know, we were having a conversation about it, right? So, like, even though you might be an underrepresented minority or a member of an underrepresented group, I think just realizing those things and being self-aware are helpful. So I would encourage people to read that book and just start to have conversations with people who are not like you to increase your understanding.

Zach: Y'all... my goodness, y'all. I just--you know what, man? I gotta--let me see here. Let's see here. What are we gonna do, man? We gotta--I just gotta give a [raucous applause sfx] I gotta thank you, man. I just gotta let you know, bro, 'cause I'ma tell you the truth, man. Sometimes, you know, I have some of these conversations with some of these D&I leaders, and they--you know, they really--and not on Living Corporate though. I make moves, so I talk to people, right? Let me tell you, they'll be talking to me, and in the back of my mind I'm over here like [fraud sfx, Glenn laughs]--it's a fraud.

Glenn: Yeah.

Zach: But I appreciate you being authentic [and] taking the time to, like, really share a bit, right? Not just about VMware, but about yourself. So yeah, man, so blessings to you, and that does it for us, y'all, on Living Corporate, you know? You know what we do, man. We post this stuff, like, three times a week. We've got these regular interviews, then we've got Tristan's Tips, and then we've got The Link Up with Latesha, all really to amplify black and brown voices at work. Make sure you check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then, you know, just Google us, you know what I'm saying? We out here, right? Like, we--you know, Glenn, like, we're really making moves, man. We got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, you know? Livingcorporate... what else? We've got pretty much all of the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com. Now, livingcorporate.com is owned by, like, Australia, right? So I don't know. I don't know what's going on with that one, but we also have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. So just check us out. We out here. Let's see here. What else? Housekeeping, housekeeping. Shout-out to Ellen, who was on mute this entire time, but Ellen was here to make sure that I didn't get Glenn or VMware sued, so shout-out to you, Ellen, and yeah. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Glenn Newman, mover, shaker, D&I leader at VMware. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

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