Episode Notes

Zach has the pleasure of sitting down to chat with Zander Lurie, the CEO of SurveyMonkey, about his company, what he's both excited and nervous about in the next 12 months, and what he's learned and is learning as a white male executive regarding how he can leverage his access, influence and capital in tangible ways. He and Zach touch on George Floyd, the #BlackLivesMatter protests, COVID-19, the economy, the political landscape and more. Zander also talks a bit about his executive network and what he thinks is top of mind for them when it comes to not losing momentum around diversity, equity and inclusion.

We all know the interview process can be fraught and full of bias. We’ve teamed up with SurveyMonkey to learn more about your experiences interviewing so we can make the entire process for BIPOC candidates. Share your thoughts: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/HLV9V5W And watch this space for the results!

Struggling with your Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DEI) work? Kanarys—a Black-founded company—has your back. Regardless of where you are on your DEI journey, we arm you with the insights you need now to take action now. From audits to assessments to data-informed strategy, we'd love to be the partner you have been looking for. Email [email protected] or learn more at https://www.kanarys.com/employer

Connect with Zander on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. https://bit.ly/3jeaEAG https://bit.ly/3jqVOXP https://bit.ly/3cEj162

Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here. https://bit.ly/2Y7snkY

Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here. https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5K

Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org. https://bit.ly/2WD73Uk

Check out our website. https://bit.ly/living-corporate

TRANSCRIPT Zach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, I'm always excited every time I come on here to share the guest that we have because, you know, we just continue to give y'all ridiculously hot content for the freeski every week, and I'm honored that we're in a position to have these opportunities to speak with the folks that we speak to, and I'm thankful to those individuals for giving us their time so freely and so willingly. Today we have a really impressive guest--the second white male on our platform, our flagship podcast, and the first white male CEO, Zander Lurie. Zander Lurie is the CEO of SurveyMonkey and serves on its board of directors, which he has been a part of since 2009. Previously Zander was the senior vice president of entertainment at GoPro. He has served on the company's board of directors since 2016. Prior to GoPro, Zander was the SVP of strategic development at CBS Corporation via its acquisition of CNET Networks where he served as chief financial officer and head of corporate development. Zander began his career in the technology investment banking group at JP Morgan, leading equity transactions and mergers and acquisitions in the internet sector. He holds a JD and an MBA from Emory University and a BA in political science from the University of Washington. Zander has co-founded the California-based non-profit organization CoachArt, which serves chronically ill children and their siblings. So I'm excited. I read the bio. I wanted to make sure--we got right into the interview with Zander, 'cause with CEOs I try to, like, you know, "Let's just get right into it," 'cause I'm trying to maximize my time with this man. So the next thing you're gonna hear is my interview with Zander. Make sure y'all check out the show notes, 'cause there's a super cool survey, or dope--I'ma say dope. It is dope. Super dope survey that SurveyMonkey has created to galvanize perspectives on just marginalized experiences and experiences at work, and so I want to make sure I share that with y'all. Again, just sharing resources. I think it's a really good survey, not only for you to take so that you can understand, but also because if you're a diversity, equity and inclusion practitioner, like, it's just really good experience for you to take an expertly-crafted surveys from a company that makes surveys as it can help maybe inform your own strategy. So it's not only an experience for you, but it's also learning for you too, right? So the next thing you're going to hear is my conversation with Zander Lurie, CEO of SurveyMonkey. Until next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach: Zander, welcome to the show. How are you doing, man?

Zander: I'm doing well, Zach. Nice to talk to you.

Zach: Look, you know, Living Corporate--as you know, we exist to center and amplify Black and brown voices, and with that being said, we [have?] aspirational allies on our platform, but believe it or not you're only the second white guy on Living Corporate, and we've had, like, almost 300 episodes. Like, how does that make you feel?

Zander: What? Jeez. It's time for you to start diversifying for your interview slots. I'm humbled to be invited and thrilled to occupy that title, so thank you.

Zach: You're welcome. Well, here's the thing. I'm trying to diversify. I don't know. We can get into it. I need your help, right? I need you to work alongside me and get some of your [brethren?] on the platform. I'd love to have more of you guys on. It's just tough. It's tough to get you guys.

Zander: Are you kidding me? That's an easy ask. If you want to meet more white dudes, I am happy to make connections, and I'm sure they would love to speak with your audience, so let's make that happen.

Zach: Okay. Now, I'ma hold you too that off-mic though, so don't be cute. Okay, all right. Now, let's get to it. You're the CEO of a globally-recognized technology company. Like, walk me through just what's been going through this year. Like, we're talking about George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter protests to COVID to the economy to this current political landscape we just had, of course, the death of Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and we have the election coming up. Like, take me into the mind of a tech chief executive officer just for a second.

Zander: Well, I mean, 2020 is the year that is a decade, right? There's a saying, I think it was one of the Russian oligarchs said, you know, "Some years nothing happens, and some years everything happens," and it's just this is one of those years. Somebody asked me about the Super Bowl halftime episode with Shakira, and, you know, I was like, "That was this year? That was, like, 100 years ago."

Zach: I forgot about that. [both laugh]

Zander: So yeah. I mean, it started in early March with the pandemic, and then everybody working from home, and that was a shock to the economy, and [people got laid off?], and then the murders of George Floyd in mid-May, which led to the protests and people really waking up to all the social inequality and injustice that your audience knows all too well. You know, the political turmoil, RBG's passing, it's just a really challenging year. So I think in many ways my job as CEO is a little bit more like everybody else's job in the company today, right? We're all working from home. We're all navigating this environment and kids at home and taking care of parents and trying to stay safe, masks, stay entertained--I haven't been on a plane in 7 months, and I'm just trying to keep the team engaged and focused and deliver for our customers all while taking on some new challenges in the realm of social justice, which is where I'm spending much more time now than I ever have.

Zach: You know, well, we're gonna get to that, right? And in the spirit of what we talked about, this year feeling like a decade, I mean, what are you excited about when you look at the next 12 months, and then, like, on the flip side of that, what are you nervous about?

Zander: Well, I think to have the position I have you have to be an optimist and you have to have things to look forward to. If you don't, you just won't have the energy to inspire and motivate the 1,300 people who work at SurveyMonkey serving 6,000+ customers. So I'm excited about the future of technology. I think this year, while we've seen so much wreckage in the economy and so many jobs lost, we've also seen this digital transformation where, as Satya Nadella from Microsoft said, "Five years of transformation happened in five months." So we are seeing the power of teachers adapting to Zoom and companies that are able to adapt in this world that we can't go to the office. You're seeing retail companies adapt quite well. So I am inspired by the power of technology, the power of innovation. You know, for me the biggest challenges right now are to just keep our people engaged and motivated in a world where there's a little less dynamism and a little less diversity of place where you go to work, you know? I think many [?] is just too much [Zoom?], there's mental health issues that all CEOs are talking about inside their companies, and I think now more than ever the role of the CEO is head of HR. We are head of a group of people, and there's never been more focus on the quality of your culture, the quality of your values, and ultimately, you know, our people are our assets. We don't have--many companies don't have patents to protect their business. We don't have supply chains that protect our businesses or exclusive vendor contracts. We have talented people that design, build, ship and sell software in the tech space, and my job is to drive that strategy and keep people really stoked to want to work at SurveyMonkey.

Zach: You know, I think to that end, right, in terms of how the role of the CEO can be more and more people-centric, you know, what have you been doing to help develop that muscle? And look, I'm looking at you with [your shirt?] on right now. You clearly go to the gym. So I'm not talking about your physical muscles. You look great, okay? [both laugh] I'm talking about this developmental capability to really drive empathy, and we're gonna get into that when we talk about the social justice thing that you alluded to earlier, but you mentioned it, so I'm increasingly curious - what does that look like for you developmentally to shift to that space?

Zander: Well, I credit our chief people officer Becky [?] with really helping instill a focus on culture many years ago. She's been at SurveyMonkey for 7 years, and we--you know, long before [?] really believed and invested in culture as a competitive advantage, recognizing that it's hard to recruit engineers and salespeople from Salesforce and Google and Facebook, and when you're headquartered in the Valley, you know, incredibly astute about where to invest their time and their talent, and if you didn't have a culture that really enabled people to do the best work of their lives, enabled people to bring their whole selves work, then I think you were at risk of losing your best talent. So we long invested in culture, and I think in many ways people were wondering why we spent so much air time on culture and values, and I think it's paying off for us today. I think we are reaping the dividends of a place where people felt we cared deeply about them and their families and our benefits reflected that, and our values ultimately--you know, I always say our values really reflect who we hire, who we promote, how we pay and who we fire, and now more than ever we are seeing the value of it, and we are seeing that we fell short. I fell short. We weren't doing enough to invest in DE&I, and I think now the environment is so welcome for [CEOs] to step up, speak about what they care about, reflect the cares of their employees and their customers, and do what's good for not only the community but for our own businesses. So I'm investing an incredible amount of time in getting this right, and we've got a long way to go.

Zach: So with that being said, let's talk about black equity specifically, and pointedly I'm curious--what is it that you have learned and you're continuing to learn, like, not only as a white man but as an executive in how you can leverage your access, your influence and your capital in tangible ways? And I say this.. so look, Zander, I'm a Black man, I'm 31 years old, I'm a manager at, like, a Big 4 consulting firm, so, like, I don't have any real power, right? Like, I'm one of these cogs in the machine. When I see y'all--when I say y'all, I'm talking about, like, white male executives, particularly CEOs--I feel like I project a lot, you know what I mean? Like, I project how much power I think y'all have. I project how much money I think y'all make. And so, like, I'd like to get, like, a practical--I'd like you to ground me a little bit, right? 'Cause I don't know what y'all do. In my mind, I'm thinking, like, you know, maybe you gargle with, like, whale tears, and like... really, I don't know. I really just have no idea what kind of--

Zander: I do. But when I wake up in the morning three of my minions put a crown on my head, [Zach: (jokingly) I would imagine.] and then they'll start feeding me grapes before my caviar eggs are prepared.

Zach: Right? [laughing]

Zander: Zach, I think you are selling yourself short, man. You've got a ton of brain power and an audience and a voice that is respected, and that is power in this day and age, especially when we're all trapped on our podcasts and Zoom boxes. So, you know, I think where I have grown, you know, at SurveyMonkey I'm super proud of the fact we have a board of directors that has five men and five women, including two Black women. I believe we're the only public company in America with two Black women on its board, but we've always talked about diversity. When I say diversity, I'm usually referring to the numbers. You know, how are we doing recruiting Latinx employees? How are we doing with Black leadership? You know, if you look at our total population of vice presidents, et cetera, so we're always slicing the numbers to evaluate how we're doing in each function [?], et cetera, but I think what I have learned personally this year is that I wasn't focused enough on the I in DE&I, and inclusivity is really about how do our Black and brown employees feel. How are they truly being valued at work, you know? Are there microaggressions that I don't see? And what I've learned since these murders, and I've really said publicly, like, I'm gonna spend more time on this than I am on product, than I am on sales, and I'm doing lunches on Zoom and I'm interviewing [whenever?] is really just asking the stories and listening and learning about the journeys that I've never experienced as a white guy who grew up with privilege and didn't have to overcome the obstacles that you overcame in a tech world that, you know, is too white. So I think if I was doing this in 2019 I think a lot of people would have been like, "What is going on? Why is he so maniacally focused on this?" But now I'm here, and I'm not gonna relent. We are not gonna let time temper our ambitions to get stronger here.

Zach: You know, that's awesome, and it's exciting to hear. I mean, I think [?] everyone's asking, "Zach, you talk to all these people. Considering your exposure and the space you inhabit, is there any one organization that you can point to us as an example?" And I say, "Look, the sad reality is, like, I can point to you... there's different brands that are doing some different things externally that are, like, really good headlines, right, but if you're asking me what organization has, like, a comprehensive, systemic plan at this moment as, like, the North Star I'd say no, right? But I think that's really exciting as we have this conversation is that there organizations that are actively driving to do what is right by their Black and brown employees and by their marginalized [?] and communities. You know, I'm not asking you to name any names--unless you want to. I mean, look, it'd be great content for Living Corporate, to be clear, but can we talk a little bit about your executive network, right? Like, what does it look like for you to engage your fellow CEOs and to leverage, again, like, the social capital you have, right? Like, you talked earlier about the vendors and the partnerships you have and the relationships you have. You know, what would you say... #1 is how are you influencing your colleagues to shift their mindset and behaviors, and then #2, as they look across the board, what would you say is, like, top of mind for them that you've observed? Like, if you look at, like, the culture of executives right now or your cohorts, like, what would you say you're observing?

Zander: Yeah. I mean, I could share a lot here. I would say in early March I got together with 17 other CEOs of public [?] businesses, and we get together [?] every Thursday at 3:00 and have an hour conversation about whatever big challenge is in front of us, and it's evolved over the last six months, but this is a group, you know, that includes Slack and Zoom and Upwork and PagerDuty and Workday, and we are all talking about this specific issue more than anything else. I would say that we spent the first couple months talking about "How do we adapt in a work-from-home environment?" A lot about technology and go to market when you can't go to the office, but really since May we've been focused on how we drive more diversity, not only in our employee basis but in our leadership team and board. How do we provide a more inclusive culture for people to bring their whole selves to work and do their very best work? How do we use our voice and products to have a bigger influence [?] where we live? So we're all talking about how we can get better recruiting, and I'll say one advantage of this pandemic is that people are starting to open their minds about, "Hell, we can work from anywhere, so we should be recruiting from anywhere," and we don't all need to be recruited out of Stanford or Berkeley around the Valley, and, you know, I'm doing a lot of interviews now with people all over the map, and I'm seeing incredible talent when we open up our peripheral vision. Secondly, on the inclusivity, you know, we're all getting trained. We've [?] the justice collective to bring in trainers to help teach our middle managers and our white allies, or our aspiring white allies, how to be better, you know? How do you talk to people who are feeling incredibly triggered by the social media killings that we've seen, and how do you open up to listen and provide space for people when they can't focus on coding or selling? And then, you know, we're doing some things in the industry which you touched on, which I think are super innovative, which leverage our balance sheet. My friend John, we talked about "How do we put our money to work beyond SurveyMonkey?" So we've partnered with 22 other companies, including Intuit and Zoom and the Golden State Warriors, and what we're doing is we are sending out a survey to all of our vendors, where we collectively spend billions with a B, to ask them, "Tell us about your board, your leadership team, your diversity, what you're doing to drive inclusivity," and we are evaluating that data in terms of where we spend our money, with marketing agencies, cloud technology suppliers, food vendors, auditors, law firms. And if people don't provide the answers or they give us answers that we find insufficient, we're gonna move on, you know? It's a competitive universe, so we can take our money and dedicate it to people who can [run?] a community better.

Zach: I love that. You know, you talked about recruiting. So it's interesting. Especially in the tech space, there's--and of course there's op-eds around, and people continue to use the excuse of, you know, "It's not us. It's them. There's not a pipeline," right? And you talked about kind of expanding your net to recruit and interview talent from places beyond, and I'm curious, as you continue to interview and, like, change and shift your interviewing approaches, have there been more pointed conversations about how [to tap into?] Black and brown undergrad student organizations, not just at the HBCUs but at the predominantly white universities as well?

Zander: Yeah. So I think this is a popular topic. It is easy for white [people] to say, you know, "We want to be more diverse. We want to drive more inclusivity," but it's hard to have an inclusive workforce when you go onto a floor of salesfolks and there's one Black guy and 150 white people. It often comes back to the white leader not having Black networks, and if you're having a cocktail party or if you lived in a fraternity and you had no Black friends, it's not a surprise that you're not able to hire Black engineers. Or if you lived in a community, you know if you're a CEO who lives in a very wealthy community, you might not have Black neighbors. So when you go out looking for folks to add to your team, often your network is gonna be your best place to start, and if it doesn't include Black and brown people you're probably gonna come up short. So it's pushing all of us to get into other networks beyond HBCUs where there's talent, and as Jeff Weiner and many others have said, "Talent is equally distributed. Opportunity is not." So we've got to go find the talent at these different universities, different geographies, investing in agencies that have, you know, better access to Black and brown talent, and it's a journey for all of us. I haven't found a lot of white CEOs who are really good at it yet. Now, if you're hiring at a massive scale, then the pipeline issue starts to become more real, and that's where I think what we need to be doing is talking about the pipeline three years from now, and if you're a short-term CEO that might be hard to swallow, but maybe you need to be investing more in internships, investing more in training programs, you know, putting more of your products into universities so that you can teach aspiring technology executives or computer scientists how to code. Even though you can't hire them in 2020, you might be able to in 2024, and if you have a long-term focus you'll be glad you did.

Zach: You know, I can hear your intention, you know, as we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion and about, you know, where SurveyMonkey still has to go and how y'all are continuing to grow and change and shift, and you also namedropped a few organizations and individuals that you're working with in the spirit of that. You know, there's already talks around how momentum is slowing down around the focus around, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion, specifically around anti-racism against white supremacy. I'm curious for you, considering where you sit, you know, what plans or what if all do you have in mind to not lose momentum with SurveyMonkey?

Zander: Well, I can't speak for other companies. I can only speak for SurveyMonkey, but if you're working with me or you're a leader on our team, you're gonna remain vigiliant and focused on DE&I or you won't be at this company. It's just too core to what we do. it's too important to our team that we get it right. It's too important to our customers, to our shareholders, to our board. So, you know, nobody would ever come to me and say, "Hey, Zander. You know, I just feel like we've been so focused on revenue growth. I'm kind of over that, man." You know? Or "Hey, Zander. Like, we were super innovative the last few years in our product development, but, like, this year, let's just not focus on much delivering for customers." Like, you'd fire that person. So, you know, if they lose focus and lose vigilance on providing a culture that provides diversity and equity and inclusion they're not gonna work here, and if other companies do that, you know, we'll poach their employees. They'll get run off the side of the road. I think there's so much momentum to get this right, and from all the CEOs in our group that I get with, there is not only a personal conviction, but it's reflected inside their employee base and their customers and, you know, I've only cried twice at work at SurveyMonkey in the last five years. I cried when my dear friend, Dave Goldberg, the CEO, died, and I cried at work a lot then, and then I cried again this year listening to the personal stories of my Black colleagues who I didn't know how much they had suffered and faced discrimination or microaggressions, either at SurveyMonkey or earlier in their career, and it was sickening to hear, and I just felt shame that we hadn't been more focused on this before. Why did we need to see those killings on the news to get more internally focused? So now we've got that focus, and we're not gonna lose it.

Zach: I mean... you know, we've got time, right? 'Cause we've been knocking--you know, it's interesting. Let me just give you some feedback in real-time. You know, I've had conversations with other leaders, and they kind of--they have, like, these really canned, like, rushed responses. This interview has been not only, in my opinion, like, impactful and thoughtful in your response, but also it's been, like, really time-efficient. Like, it's almost like you run, like, a global business or something. It's just incredible.

Zander: Well, I appreciate the good words, but, like, these are just words, and I heard our employees say, like, "If you just tweet and move on, you know, you're gonna lose me. You're gonna lose my loyalty," and words are cheap, so... we can all posts and we can get on podcasts, but ultimately it's about the numbers, it's about money, it's about promotions, it's about driving real change in the world, and I want to do good work here, and I want to be remembered as somebody who [?] business but also really delivered on the DE&I goals we have.

Zach: You set me up really well honestly for my second to last question, which is, you know, what I've been noticing is that--and broadly recognizing this is not specific to every white leader, but a lot of times in these moments that have happened--'cause this has happened before. Like, this is not the first time organizations have come together and made statements about equality, different language but, again, this is not new. What I'm curious about and what I've noticed is is that sometimes in this moment, white leaders, they're happy to do [this work?], but if they do the work they're still sensitive to being challenged by the marginalized people in question, right? So, like, if someone was to raise their hand and be like, "Okay, but yeah, this is still going on," or "Hey, I have this problem," they're like, "Okay, what else do you want me to do? Don't you see I'm doing all this stuff?" Right? My question is how do you build--how do you continue to build your own resilience and sticktuitiveness to not be fragile if and when your Black colleagues, your Black employees, other marginalized people continue to give you challenging feedback in light of the work that you're doing as the CEO of SurveyMonkey? Like, what does it look like for you to build that toughness to take that feedback and then continue to not get, you know, upset or retaliatory?

Zander: Yeah, I think it depends on what kind of company you're running and what kind of leader you are. I mean, SurveyMonkey at its core is a feedback company, you know? Our software, it's used by millions of people to share [their?] sentiment about, you know, their manager, about products, about the concert they went to, about their child's curriculum, et cetera. So if you're running SurveyMonkey and you don't have a growth mindset and you can't listen to feedback that you get from town halls and [?], that's gonna be a really tough position. So, you know, I like to think I have a growth mindset. Am I sensitive at times? You bet. You know, people say things that hurts to read on email or on Glassdoor or in questions, and I've been [held?] to the mat in this arena for sure. I've been challenged we're not doing enough. I've been challenged on "You said something stupid," and usually the person challenging me is right. So I've learned a ton, and I think, you know--in June I got on our town hall and I said, "I feel so ill-equipped to be the leader during this time when the most important issue is equity in our workplace." Like, what the hell do I know as a white guy who, you know, like many other white leaders was kind of born on second base? But I'm learning, and I'm not gonna be shy about asking questions and, you know, especially listening to the Black and brown colleagues I have and my board members and interview candidates. There's a lot to learn and watch, and I'm on that journey.

Zach: Look, you know, Zander, this has been a dope conversation. Before we let you go--and, you know, you dropped mad jewels to be clear, right, and we typically do sound effects, but--

Zander: MAD jewels?

Zach: Mad jewels, man. Jewels, man. I appreciate you.

Zander: I like that one. I'm gonna steal that one.

Zach: No, you should. You have my permission. There, it's not theft any longer.

Zander: I have to be a little bit more sensitive with using "dope," but you pulled it off quite nicely. But mad jewels I'm gonna repurpose and use frequently.

Zach: Mad jewels. You dropped 'em this whole conversation. So any parting words, man, before we let you go?

Zander: For folks in your audience, obviously we are open to feedback. We're open to ideas. You know, many of the good ideas I think we are executing on now surfaced from consultants, surfaced from outside friends, surfaced from CEO groups and others that were coming together asking what we could do differently this year than we did last, and I think that really is the challenge, you know, as I said internally. At the end of this year, I don't want to look back and ask, "How did we respond and not have very tangible, specific goals and achievements?" And even if we fall short, I'd rather fall short than not take some, you know, big swings. So for folks that have more ideas, folks that are interested in working at SurveyMonkey, I'm zander@surveymonkey, and I look forward to learning more, listening more and meeting more folks, and Zach, I appreciate you asking questions and inviting me on your show.

Zach: It's not a problem. Now, look, before we end this whole interview, listen, everybody. You know, aspirational allies who listen to Living Corporate, I want y'all to check this out, man. Look at this interview, okay? This man, Zander Lurie, he came on this platform--okay, he knew that I was gonna ask him some real questions. He didn't back down, and he wasn't all afraid and sensitive [about] his image. He came and he did not take any type of, you know, awkward posture. Some of y'all hit me up--that's right, I'ma take this moment right now to say something. Some of y'all hit me up and y'all want people to come on, and sometimes you only want your Black faces to come on, right? You don't want to bring on your CEOs, but check this out. This is the CEO of SurveyMonkey coming and talking about the things he has to learn, the things he's continuing to learn and the things he's continuing to do. You have no excuse. Shout-out to Zander, man. I appreciate y'all. Listen, you know what we're doing. Every single week we're doing what? Centering and amplifying Black and brown voices at work by having real talk in a corporate world. Yes, we typically talk to Black and brown folks, but every now and then we bring on some aspirational allies, and like I said, Zander is the second--yes, that's right, 1, 2, the second--white man to be on Living Corporate and the first white male CEO. I mean, it doesn't really get much better than that. Now, look--

Zander: I'm feeling you. I'm feeling you, Zach. I appreciate the love.

Zach: [laughs] Y'all, we're all over Beyonce's internet. You can just check us out at Living Corporate. I'm not gonna do all the social stuff at the end of this thing. Make sure you check out all the links, including the survey link that I already mentioned at the top of the show. Check that out there too. Make sure y'all look, click and learn about SurveyMonkey and about Zander. 'Til next time. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Zander Lurie, CEO of SurveyMonkey. Peace.

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